Defending the Mythic Underworld

Defending the Mythic Underworld from Morons

The following is an exchange on the following video on YouTube in my comment section. I call this guy a r*tard (because he is). I don’t know what Substack’s policy is on the hard R, but I’m censoring it here just in case. Regardless, I’m fed up with being strawmanned by people who can’t grasp basic logic. The commenter is “Nobleshield”. Also, I’ve already stated I’m on my villain arc so I have to play the villain here. Here is the video:

Nobleshield: If you go with the idea that all dungeons are an underworld versus a ruin that physically exists in the world, and as a result all monsters are unnatural creatures so why they are there doesn't matter just that they ARE there, that's fine but it sets a specific tone of the campaign: One where the game is more important than the world. Which is also fine, but it's like the difference between a board game where monsters exist just to be fought versus a living, breathing world. Most people I think consider a dungeon to be a ruined part of the world, not the entrance to Tartarus like with Orpheus (which is one example of a dungeon, but not the ONLY example of a dungeon).

Me: You keep strawmaning. This is my frustration. Why do you keep saying that I or anyone else is saying, “All dungeons must be the underworld."? On X, you used phrases like "the dungeon should..." or "the dungeon ought..." and then proceeded to explain naturalistic reasoning for a dungeon. If anything, I should be asking you why you think all dungeons should be naturalistic.

Nobleshield: Dungeons should be naturalistic because they naturally exist. They are caves, ruins, catacombs, abandoned cities (Moria springs to mind here). Why wouldn't those things be natural? The deeper you go thing you say only applies if you assume "at some point" all dungeons open up into what, the Underdark? That's ridiculous. Why should things get more supernatural as you go further, assuming the dungeon even does go further? For that matter, why should it go further? A catacomb might have a level or two but probably not a dozen that somehow has various creatures on each level. You seem to be arguing from a perspective that dungeons need to be these megadungeon things with progressively lower levels, where things get weirder as you go. I don't understand that mindset at all because it's completely nonsensical. Like that seems to be what I'm not understanding. The vast majority of people consider dungeons to be abandoned ruins and the like, not "Castle Greyhawk with 12 levels of weird monsters that exist just because".

Notice I have not used phrases like “should” or “Ought,” and yet here this illiterate is, and I’m the one accused of “one true wayisms” online though by these very same types of people.

Me: "Dungeons should be naturalistic because they naturally exist."

Just assuming your position is true and restating it isn't actually an argument but a circular and a logical fallacy.

You point to Moria. This is hilarious because a literal demon (Balrog) lives deep within, along with strange tentacle monsters and old things from long ago. The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep. They hit the mythical underworld. And if you don't think Tolkien, a man who loved myth, wasn't leaning into the idea of the mythical underworld, you are just illiterate and wrong if I'm honest.

So, can you argue for your position that all dungeons should be naturalistic without a circular argument and without just assuming your position is correct? Do you have a justification for your argument?

Mine is that this is what ancient myth and ancient people and ancient religion entails and fits with the milieu of a fantastic medieval setting as well as references rules within the game. You are just stating circular, unjustified assertions. This is why you are objectively wrong.

Nobleshield: Except A) The Balrog has a reason to be there (the Dwarfs delved too deep) it's not just randomly there because weird demon, and B) There are also a horde of Orcs there who, again, exist there because it's an ancient, abandoned Dwarf city in the mountains that they infested when it was abandoned. That's not "mythical underworld" in the sense of "random things there for no reason without having any ecology". That's an actual reason for them being there and existing. The Balrog doesn't have an ecology because it's a demon, but the Orcs certainly do. Like seriously, am I completely missing the point here/ Nobody is arguing EVERYTHING has to make sense. But MOST things should. Moria isn't even what I'd consider "mythical underworld" because it has a logical reason for existing. The only thing "Mythical" about it is the balrog, and the balrog MAKES SENSE WHY IT'S THERE. The Orcs certainly aren't "supernatural"

Me: “Except A) The Balrog has a reason to be there (the Dwarfs delved too deep) it's not just randomly there because weird demon,”

Are you just illiterate and r*tarded? That's not even an argument. How is what you just said justification or even a naturalistic explanation for the Balrog being there? The Two Towers, Chapter 5:

"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair."

The name "Moria" means "Black Pit" in Tolkien’s work. A religious comparison is Psalm 88:6: "You have laid me in the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths." Sheol, the underworld in the Hebrew scriptures, is called the pit and eternal darkness. Tolkien was CATHOLIC. He’s clearly riffing on these ideas.

”B) There are also a horde of Orcs there who, again, exist there because it's an ancient, abandoned Dwarf city in the mountains that they infested when it was abandoned.”

So? What does that prove? The goblins that lived there feared the Balrog and the nameless things in the deep. It’s like you are talking about something you nothing about.

“That's not "mythical underworld" in the sense of "random things there for no reason without having any ecology".”

Please stop being a mouth-breathing r*tard and saying my position is “lol, so random.” I realize you have to strawman me because your position is feeble and weak, but I’m not going to let you get away with it and I will continue to insult your intelligence until you actually address my actual position instead of what you have to imagine my position is for you to feel like you are right.

“That's an actual reason for them being there and existing. The Balrog doesn't have an ecology because it's a demon, but the Orcs certainly do.”

What? So you assume my position that the higher levels (I mean those closest to the surface) of the dungeon are more natural but the deeper you go, YOU GET INTO THE MYTHICAL UNDERWORLD WERE DEMONS RESIDE?!?!

You are genuinely lacking a basic grasp of logic.

“Like seriously, am I completely missing the point here/ Nobody is arguing EVERYTHING has to make sense.”

YES! You are missing the point! That’s the frustrating part. I’m sick of your r*tarded lack of logic and strawmen in my replies along with circular reasoning, assuming your position is justified logically, and then arguing from it.

“But MOST things should. Moria isn't even what I'd consider "mythical underworld" because it has a logical reason for existing.”

You are r*tarded and need to reread Tolkien.

“The only thing "Mythical" about it is the balrog, and the balrog MAKES SENSE WHY IT'S THERE.”

You above gave no logical reasoning for the Balrog being there. You said his reason for being there is that “the dwarves delved too deep.” How the hell is that a naturalistic explanation for the Balrog to be there? Further, you said that Balrog doesn’t have ecology, but the Orcs certainly do. You are making a comparison for a logical reason to be there with the orcs and a mysterious reason with the balrog that is not explained. You are r*tarded and cannot even craft a coherent argument. You just make assertions. So I’m done arguing with you. Go be r*tarded someplace else.

I’m being a mean jerk now because I’m tired of having my replies full of mouth-breathing troglodytes who couldn’t read or reason their way out of a paper bag. What the heck is wrong with the hobby? I thought this was a hobby for smart people!

These morons seem to think that the mythic underworld is “lol so random.” Have they not read the Bible? Have they not read Greek myth? Have not actually comprehended Tolkien? Have they not read Babylonian myth? These people have no business in this discussion. Go ahead and have your naturalistic dungeon with ecology, but stay out of the discussion on myth. Gary says in the 3LBBs “Those wargames who lack imagination… … will not be likely to find DUNGEONS & DRAGONS to their tastes.” These mouth breathers are clearly in the wrong game and the wrong hobby with their weak an anemic imaginations and understanding of the source material. Alright evil TBE rant done.